Curse

Yawgmoth · Apr 05, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Soul Reaping is undeniably severely OP and easily the best primary attribute of all 10.
But there are still many other imba things so it's not the only thing that needs a nerf if we ever want to speak of any real balance as a reality, not only a dream.

And all this talk about "FUN" when talking about balance is complete bs. It's not an argument at all. Imba is almost always fun. One could say the BAMPH! (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/BAMPH!) skill is great FUN, and even if it really is it doesn't mean it's good to have it available for the health of the game.

/signed for more balance, not just sr nerf.

Xenomortis · Apr 05, 2010, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Soul Reaping Is NOT Overpowered.

It is.
Of course PvE is inherently broken with all the stuff thrown in from EotN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Necromancer skills are often expensive. Let's face it, to continually spam OoP and DF, you NEED Cultist's Fervor. What does that tell you? Soul Reaping isn't Overpowered. QQ less, please.

Why should I be able to mindlessly spam two 10 energy skills on recharge (well, OoP doesn't have a recharge)? You could say the sacrifice keeps it balanced and if it weren't for ER I wouldn't be able to run it.
Well I could - low max health and Blood Renewal solves the issue. I just stay away from the action and maybe use stuff like Aegis with a bit of careful positioning.

With 9 in Soul Reaping I can fuel OotV spam (5e every 6 seconds), use Well of Blood, spam Blood Bond and use some hex and condition removal whilst maintaining Strength of Honor on four people. The returns from an incomplete SR spec (including SoLS (but I'm not entirely certain that's necessary)) can easily fuel a bar that spams skills and has no energy regeneration at all!

The only real balancing factor for Soul Reaping in PvE is a lack of non-elite energy management skills Necromancers have. The Necromancer has only 3 (+1 PvE only) real energy management skills that are non-elite - Signet of Lost Souls, Consume Corpse and Angorodon's Gaze (Signet of Corruption is the PvE one). Foul Feast and Jaundiced Gaze are sort of there.

Now I've argued that SR is overpowered. However I don't think you can nerf it, especially not so crudely like this.
For instance, the Domain of Anguish is horrendously broken and the majority of people require overpowered stuff to even have a hope of completing it. When the DoA was first introduced before EotN very, very few people could get through it and kill Mallyx.

robmdq · Apr 06, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Please help me to understand something.

For what i'm reading here the most serious cases of "overpower" comes when SR is combined with some exp. skills (sorry here, i don't play the expansions, i stick to the original prophecies). If that is the case, and now comes the tough part, why don't nerf the newer skills intead of nerfing the base skills as it's been happening so far (everytime an expansion added new skills they nerfed the base ones, rendering base builds almust useless in the best of the cases).

I wonder if the people who are complaining about SR overpowered have played a core campaign character lately with only core skills... Basically all classes are becoming nearly unplayable now thanks to this new fashion of nerfing the core skills to give importance to the new ones

Graveheart · Apr 06, 2010, 09:15 AM // 09:15

History lesson by one old old necromancer only player.
Once upon a time when fractions didnt exist yet,necromancers had infinite soul reaping and no minion limit.
Sure thats what you would call a lot of power,but during prophecies the elite skills were few ,and of course there were areas with no corpses.
Arenas?Pvp?Yes those existed back then,but i didnt see anyone complaining that an mm was breaking them (actually it was dumb to go in an arena as mm with the minions we had back then,the wammos would eat you alive).
Then with factions we started seeing the problems with minion limit,after the soul reaping and anet started cutting head when it was only the foot hurting (Oh and i do friggin recall which part of the gw community was the crybaby over the nerfs,har har har rangers).
Back to pure math and stats etc etc etc
In a functional rate,soul reaping is currently the slowest of them all,necros get what?12-13 energy 3 times in a period of 15 seconds IF SOMETHING WITHIN RANGE DIES 3 TIMES.
Hmmm now thats a big catch isnt it?
Lets compare how constant expertise is,or strength or leadership or motivation?Fast casting?Spawning power?
If you think deeply,and compare you would find that the answer isnt a nerf.
Necros make up for jack of all trades (spellcaster classes) but they are masters of none other than theyr own (and that is still debatable,when we cant use our own touch skills since we dont have synergy to spam them like rangers,or when rits make minions that can outlive the ones we do).

reaper with no name · Apr 06, 2010, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

"Nerf" in title.

Lack of content in post.

/notsigned

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear The Apocalypse

I still do not understand why everyone QQ's over which class is OP or which is not. Does it really effect the game that much to where you don't have fun? NOT OMG that is OP and can solo anything... BUT FUN! Isn't that the intent of a game?

Take ER (for example) it allows ele's out performs monks in many cases does that mean we should nerf it too? I know ER is a skill and SR is an att but the comparison to your argument is the same-"There is no excuse for them to be playing other professions better then that profession can play itself." Same can be said for many builds.

SR is fine the way it is. I play Necro as a primary so sure I may be biased but to me the way SR attribute works is just fine.

According to the OP, the poster only wants SR nerfed cause of one possible build out of HUNDREDS. You even said it yourself the reason minions cost so much is because you get so much back from SR. That's a balance in its self.

To me making the ratio ranks-SR return 2:1 will make the Attribute nearly obsolete. The only way that would be remotely viable is to remove the/ lessen the time restraint of 3times in 15seconds that you can gain energy.

To be honest and granted this is my PERSONAL opinion, why nerf the attribute to make it more stressful for Necros to use when it works just fine the way it is? Why kill the fun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear The Apocalypse

It's fun because it is a game. You're contributing to the party in one way or another by being in the group. You're adding to the damage of the party one way or another. And even if you are not doing ALL THE DAMAGE or in your words"only dealing a fraction of damage" I still found running monk in groups as a healer or bonder just as satisfying as running a damage dealer. Same as running Mesmer in DOA. Playing BIP in groups. It all contribute to the game and your team. If it is not fun then stop playing.
And why bring up the argument "as a group"? If you nerf the soul reaping attribute solely for group purposes then you're forgetting about the Solo part of game play.

Did you even read the suggestion?

Most players have more fun when they are able to be useful to a party. Necromancers, by virtue of their overpowered primary attribute that allows insane energy management without even doing anything, make it more difficult for those other players to contribute, by reducing the number of good builds at their disposal. In other words, necromancers have more "fun" than other classes at the expense of the "fun" of those other classes. This is bad.

However, if you just nerf SR, then MM builds become harder or impossible, because of the high cost of minion skills. So, by reducing those costs at the same time, you can safely nerf SR without hurting MMs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

I've seen a alot more Mesmers using secondary professions due to their primary attribute as opposed to necros

. I've only seen about 3 necros running N/Mo, 1 necro N/E, and a couple of N/Me mainly using backfire/empathy. I can understand N/Rt to some degree

but saying SR allows for unparalleled abuse is an opinion, because you're assuming your always going to get the kill. Even if that was the case most of the time the energy gain from SR won't balance out with the spells you have to cast prior to the opponents death, whether you're running an offensive or defensive bar. The professions you're "abusing" can go beyond 12 att and can prove to be a little more successful damage/support wise, which imo evens out with the gain from soul reaping
If SR is the problem then you're basically calling for a nerf to expertise

as well, since it affects attack skills, touch skills, and spirits from other professions. But that wasn't the entire issue seeing as how rangers were able to use defensive capabilities with the cheaper attack skills more efficiently. The trade-off is that necros may gain energy bonus but they also lack the primary attribute for that profession as well as the ability to go beyond 12 in any of it's attribute. I don't understand the idea behind this nerf. Is it to encourage people to use other professions, which most of the time they do, or to stop relying on SR for survivability.

That's because mesmers have no choice. Their own profession is absolute crap. It actually proves the point. Necromancers are insanely powerful whether they rely on their own skills or secondaries. They are easily the most versatile class in the game. This is a bad thing, because there are only so many roles one can fill in a party, and 10 professions. When you have one class that can do, say, 30% of those roles effectively, then some class is going to have the short end of the stick. And yes, expertise needs a nerf for non-ranger skills as well, but that's outside the scope of this particular suggestion, and I believe has been suggested before (by me, even).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Are you anonyed that Necros have a lot of good bars or because they are "Better" than other classes with the other class skillbars?
Necros are pretty crap at melee (Dervs, Sins, Warriors or Paragons are better at that role. Heck, even Rits, Mesmers and Monks are better Meleemancers than Necros are).
Monks are better protters and Healers than Necros (a N/Rt healer is only better at removing conditions than the average Monk bar... but so is a Monk with Draw conditions. A Necro with Foul Feast can even remove conditions better than the whole N/Rt bar).
Rits are better Spirit spammers, and they have a very good Minion Bomber build that players can use (they can easily crowd out Necros if players would accept them).
Eles will always be the better Nuke spammers because the high energy pool with good Energy management skills still beats SR without Ele runes.
Mesmers will also always be better Interrupters and general crowd control because of fast casting and their own Skills.

Each profession has its upsides and downsides. Just because there are so many Necro bars that rely on secondary profession skills doesnt mean that necros are automatically better than those other professions at them. it just means that players have thought about more bars for Necros that use other skills... nothing more and nothing less.

The thing about SR is... either you get loads of Energy if things die at just the right time, or you get none because things arent dying fast enough... or you get too much because your Energy reserve is already full and 1 or 2 of those deaths within the 15 second limit are comletely wasted.

What you are trying to do is not balance the Necro profession, its just trying to make other professions into sub-par Necros.

I'm annoyed that necros are so good that they crowd out other classes. Sure, you might find it fun that you have fifty different ways you can contribute to the party, but what about the classes you "took" those options from? Don't they deserve to have just as much fun as you?

And no, not all classes have their upsides and downsides. The dervish, for example, currently has no upsides with respect to the warrior. The only upsides a mesmer has over any other class is that they can go Me/A for sin summon spam or use Fevered Dreams better than other classes.

greep · Apr 06, 2010, 11:32 AM // 11:32

eh... you'd have to make a pve split for soul reaping, and I'm not sure they can do that? Soul reaping remains in the bottom 3 worst primaries in PvP, nerfing it more would just mean all necromancer would go Mesmer primary for the fast casting. If I have to choose between balancing PvP and PvE which allows junk like Save Yourselves... well I can't even see a PvE player really saying it'd be a good idea after thinking about it. If it becomes a problem and people ask for necros only, then it might be worth thinking about. Otherwise, heck no. Besides don't people just bring a bip PvE anyways, rendering this discussion mostly moot?

Deviant Angel · Apr 06, 2010, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Are we even playing the same game?

In the past few months, I've joined quite a few pugs and I haven't seen a single person request that a necro do anything other than be a necro.

They are usually presented with two options: SS or MM. On rare occasions, I've seen blood builds requested.

Nobody insists that they heal, spirit spam, nuke, or anything else. If you want to run a restoration or healing necro, go for it, but I'm pretty confident that most groups will favor a monk or ritualist for those roles.

Sure, soul reaping allows necros to be pretty versatile (assuming stuff is dying), but I don't understand how you can say that it's causing issues for other professions.

HigherMinion · Apr 06, 2010, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Most players have more fun when they are able to be useful to a party. Necromancers, by virtue of their overpowered primary attribute that allows insane energy management without even doing anything

Things must die. You can waste your 40 energy on the first kill, but you won't get 40e back. You will not be able to spam skills if you choose stupid high-e skills and spam them all the time without any extra energy management.

I don't think you've played a necromancer, Reaper, or are just annoyed that your dervish can't do things we can... You must experiment more with your dervish, if you want to have "fun".

This is why the 15 second timer is a brilliant balance, and it IS balanced now. I would have agreed had it still been the same "When something dies, gain 52352 energy." That was amazing; and allowed for a full army of Bone Fiends to be maintained with great ease.

Now things require careful planning, and require extra energy management usually. SolS is almost always a staple in necromancer builds, unless Assassin's Promise is present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

That's because mesmers have no choice. Their own profession is absolute crap. It actually proves the point. Necromancers are insanely powerful whether they rely on their own skills or secondaries.

I remember when everyone would go /Me to take advantage of Inspiration's energy management properties in early PvE. It wasn't a good idea, but I'm just saying that mesmers themselves had it easy for energy management, and skill spamming with Fast Casting. All professions have a hand full of decent builds, of course. You don't know the difference between a mix of synergising skills/attributes to a "Great" build. Dervs are warriors. They have self-damage-reduction skills, a ~3 AoE scythe with high damage, quick attacks...etc. They even have a healing/prot build of their own.

Mesmers have builds such as Fevered Dreams condition spread, AP sin spam, they can run support builds with signets better than any other profession and their energy management is great.

Also, would you rather there not be a secondary profession or...? Would that be the best way to balance this game to you? Make EVERY Primary Attribute's skill say "If Primary Attribute is 5>". This would limit anything any profession can do, including your whiny dervish.

robmdq · Apr 06, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

It seems that this is just another "i think they are better than me so nerf them so i am not so bad anymore" situation.

I have no other option but to agree with Targren since i see no valid reasons on why it would be justified to nerf one of the traditionally "bad" primary skills. I see that people have forgotten the common "SR sucks" we used to hear just about everywhere (check posts in this same forums older than 4 years and you will see by yourself).

To be even more realistic, if is it in fact that Dervish is affected by SR, then again, balance the dervish up to the core class/skill, not nerf the baics.

Reformed · Apr 06, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deviant Angel

In the past few months, I've joined quite a few pugs and I haven't seen a single person request that a necro do anything other than be a necro.

They are usually presented with two options: SS or MM. On rare occasions, I've seen blood builds requested.

Along this line of thought...

I play a fair bit of high-end PvE and see the groups call for at most two necros but more typically just one if it's needed at all. The bars they do play are either casterspike or utility and neither of which is crowding out some other class. Both of those options rely primarily on in-class skills to run the bar not massive secondary skill 'theft'. Sure, you could go find some gimmick build where necros do non-standard roles but we are talking in practice not in theory here. If the hope is to nerf necros to make less useful options look better then it's pretty flimsy.

Drelias Melaku · Apr 06, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

As someone who primarily plays a necromancer, I can tell you that we are certainly NOT crowding out other classes. It's very, very rare that I am asked to run anything that isn't primarily a necromancer build. I've even offered to N/Rt heal when there was an excess of necros, but too few monks, but everyone PREFERS actual monks. We can't really compete with elementalists' 80+ energy and their management. I'm still not seeing how Soul Reaping is overpowered. Yes, necromancers are versatile, but I can't remember a time when someone said, "No, I want the necro to run the monk/ele/rit/mesmer build instead of taking that monk/ele/rit/mesmer." If the whole premise of your argument is that necromancers are stealing party slots from other professions, then it's utterly failed.

drkn · Apr 06, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

I don't think you've played a necromancer, Reaper, or are just annoyed that your dervish can't do things we can... You must experiment more with your dervish, if you want to have "fun".

i love that kind of argument. i guess that you've mastered all classes, including dervish, in pve and you just know that - compared to all other primairy atts in most occassions - SR is balanced and totally fine.

i'd rather buff other primairy atts to SR level than nerf SR but that's just me, nerf-hating mesmer, outclassed and outnumbered by any other class.

Chthon · Apr 07, 2010, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Oh... not this crap again.

SR is fine for PvE purposes. (And worthless for PvP purposes...) If anything, the timer should be reverted, or at least made less clunky and less of a punishment for playing well.

/notsigned

And, by the way, an important lesson that applies to cries of "nerf!" for SR and many other things as well: Having more energy does NOT have a linear utility function. It's a very jagged stairstep function. You either have enough energy to do X, or you don't. It turns out that there's very little in GW that is both (a) worth doing, and (b) really expensive. On the top tier is maintaining ProtBond -- something only ER can do, and something that necros are practically equivalent to warriors at doing (because neither can do it effectively at all). On the second tier is spamming PS -- this is something that (while worse than ER) SR does a decent job at, and few other options can. (Which leaves me wondering why almost no one does it.) After that, we get into some necromancer skills like Bone Fiend and OoP that are overpriced specifically because SR exists. There's really very little that SR lets you do that's worth doing and that lesser e-management options can't also do.

Olim Chill · Apr 07, 2010, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Oh... not this crap again.

SR is fine for PvE purposes. (And worthless for PvP purposes...) If anything, the timer should be reverted, or at least made less clunky and less of a punishment for playing well.

/notsigned

I approve of the above message.

/not signed

trankle · Apr 07, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deviant Angel

Are we even playing the same game?

In the past few months, I've joined quite a few pugs and I haven't seen a single person request that a necro do anything other than be a necro.

They are usually presented with two options: SS or MM. On rare occasions, I've seen blood builds requested.

Nobody insists that they heal, spirit spam, nuke, or anything else. If you want to run a restoration or healing necro, go for it, but I'm pretty confident that most groups will favor a monk or ritualist for those roles.

Sure, soul reaping allows necros to be pretty versatile (assuming stuff is dying), but I don't understand how you can say that it's causing issues for other professions.

I'd have to agree.

To the OP, are you seeing otherwise? Are you seeing parties asking for Necro players to fill roles that should in theory be left to other primary professions? N/Mo's being requested over primary Mo's, for example? Or N/E, N/W, N/Rt, etc? Where? For what specific roles?

I get that SR on paper looks OP enough to threaten other professions' dominance at their natural roles, but in game, with real players*, I'm just not seeing it happen. If you could provide examples where this is actually a problem for other classes, then I'd be interested to hear them.

*Heroes can be a different story, but as was mentioned, this is primarily because of the AI's poor energy management.

Regulus X · Apr 07, 2010, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Soul Reaping is not overpowered in the game, you're just underpowered in the mind.

If soul reaping gets nerfed again, I'll take up my ele or Rt to make minions because there'd be no more reason to use the primary profession at all at that point because SR would be officially Smiter's Boon'd if nerfed any further.

jayce · Apr 07, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50

/not signed - for any change that have SR remain passive and conditional in nature.

Improvavel · Apr 07, 2010, 11:11 AM // 11:11

If SR only existed to fuel minions than it would have read "Any time a minion you control die you get so much energy per rank".

This is clearly not the case. Actually soul reaping had 0 skills in prophecies and only 2 elites in factions, in NF got 3 (and the 2 first non-elite SR skills) and 2 more in EotN.

Imagine they do your purposed change. If I want to play curses and get no energy from SR why won't I play a Me/N instead? I'll cast my skills a lot faster. What about a blood necro?

Why would I play a primary Necro?

The easiest nerf you could do on SR is preventing other necros to gain energy from other ppl minions.

drkn · Apr 07, 2010, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

all the sr-is-fine

when compared with other primairy attributes, it IS superior. noticeably superior.

e:
what irritates me, personally, the most is that necros can actually not only run the best primairy att in the game, but also get the effect of primairy att of another profession.
since SR is usually enough as e-management for necros, counting out spell-spammers and other weirdoes, they can get mindbender in place where me/n would have to get some e-management skill. and we've already argued about two-three months ago in another topic that, although mesmers have loads of skills for e-management, they are fairly less powerful than SR itself unless you'd like to dedicate three slots for e-management.
and both mindbender and SR are to blame. i wouldn't nerf them though, rather redesign other primairy attributes - SR is fine for pve, it's not fine when looked at in comparison to other attributes. and that's the wrong part - i'd prefer to change those atts rather than SR. but broken things are still broken.

reaper with no name · Apr 07, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

It seems that this is just another "i think they are better than me so nerf them so i am not so bad anymore" situation.

I have no other option but to agree with Targren since i see no valid reasons on why it would be justified to nerf one of the traditionally "bad" primary skills. I see that people have forgotten the common "SR sucks" we used to hear just about everywhere (check posts in this same forums older than 4 years and you will see by yourself).

To be even more realistic, if is it in fact that Dervish is affected by SR, then again, balance the dervish up to the core class/skill, not nerf the baics.

the dervish is one class that is not affected by SR (with the exception of Orders; but necromancers are supposed to be better at that). This has nothing to do with the dervish. Believe it or not, there are other things in this game I care about besides the dervish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drelias Melaku

We can't really compete with elementalists' 80+ energy and their management.

Your post made sense until this part. Having more energy != energy management. And the actual energy management offered by energy storage does not compete with SR, even before considering the fact that the elementalist has to burn skill slots for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Things must die. You can waste your 40 energy on the first kill, but you won't get 40e back. You will not be able to spam skills if you choose stupid high-e skills and spam them all the time without any extra energy management.

I don't think you've played a necromancer, Reaper, or are just annoyed that your dervish can't do things we can... You must experiment more with your dervish, if you want to have "fun".

This is why the 15 second timer is a brilliant balance, and it IS balanced now. I would have agreed had it still been the same "When something dies, gain 52352 energy." That was amazing; and allowed for a full army of Bone Fiends to be maintained with great ease.

Now things require careful planning, and require extra energy management usually. SolS is almost always a staple in necromancer builds, unless Assassin's Promise is present.

I remember when everyone would go /Me to take advantage of Inspiration's energy management properties in early PvE. It wasn't a good idea, but I'm just saying that mesmers themselves had it easy for energy management, and skill spamming with Fast Casting. All professions have a hand full of decent builds, of course. You don't know the difference between a mix of synergising skills/attributes to a "Great" build. Dervs are warriors. They have self-damage-reduction skills, a ~3 AoE scythe with high damage, quick attacks...etc. They even have a healing/prot build of their own.

Mesmers have builds such as Fevered Dreams condition spread, AP sin spam, they can run support builds with signets better than any other profession and their energy management is great.

Also, would you rather there not be a secondary profession or...? Would that be the best way to balance this game to you? Make EVERY Primary Attribute's skill say "If Primary Attribute is 5>". This would limit anything any profession can do, including your whiny dervish.

Secondary professions are a great idea, so long as they are used for making your primary class better at what it does. The problem is, Anet didn't account for people using their primary attributes to play as another profession. Many of the balance problems in GW today can be traced back to secondary professions being used in ways for which they were not intended (the old SF was an example).

Oh, Inspiration used to be insanely good. And it was nerfed for that reason. I don't see what that has to do with this, though. The past is the past.

And yes, I do play a necromancer. The dervish is not supposed to be able to do what the necromancer can (honestly, dervishes should not be spamming orders all over the place; someday that needs to get nerfed for them). They are not comparable.

The same arguments about energy apply to any other class. If you use 40 energy on a monster, you won't get that back. The difference is, that while other classes have to waste time and skill slots for energy management just to save 10-15 or so energy a pop, the necromancer gets that with no skill slots or action on his part, and can get it up to 3 times every 15 seconds. That's overpowered. Critical strikes can't compete with that. Neither can leadership. Or inspiration. Or energy storage. The only attribute that can is expertise, and that's overpowered too for the same reasons (ie, when not used with ranger skills).